The following is an excerpt from Garrett Atkins’ website, www.garrettatkins.com:
“I would say he’s not just one of the best young hitters in the game, he’s one of the best hitters. We think he’s only going to get better.”
-Rockies General Manager Dan O’Dowd, Denver Post, April 11, 2006
Throughout his career, Atkins has been described with certain adjectives like versatile, natural, special and stellar. His swing has been compared to that of Manny Ramirez as being one of the most natural in the league. All the talk about Atkins is nice and all, but it would mean nothing if he didn’t perform on the field. He has hit .286 or better over his last five seasons and has averaged right around 25 home runs and 100 RBI for his career, that is, up until last season where he struggled a bit. Atkins was released by the Rockies after a disappointing 2009 season where he only hit .226 with nine homers and 48 RBI.
Despite the sub-par season, the Orioles signed Atkins to a one-year deal worth $4.5 million back in December, hoping he will bounce back from his worst season to date. The Orioles’ front office thinks Atkins has what it takes to be an elite hitter in the league and, with the instruction of hitting coach Terry Crowley, hopes he will return to form in 2010.
Atkins came onto the scene in 2005 with the Rockies and finished the season as one of the top rookies in the league. He batted .287 with 13 homers, 31 doubles and 89 RBI and thrived with runners in scoring position, batting .309 with 74 RBI. Atkins quickly proved he wasn’t a fluke and, in 2006, was considered for the NL MVP award (10 votes) after hitting .329 with 29 home runs and 120 RBI. In addition to being nominated for the NL MVP award, CBS Sportsline.com ranked Atkins as the second-best third baseman ahead of Aramis Ramirez, David Wright and Alex Rodriguez. Simply put, he was and is for real.
Atkins is stellar at the plate, but he is no slouch when it comes to fielding his position(s) either. He can play both first and third base and, in 2008, was one of three MLB players to start 60-plus games at two different positions (94 at third base, 61 at first base). But the Orioles signed Atkins with the intention of him occupying first base the majority of the time, especially since the Orioles re-singed Miguel Tejada to take over the third base duties. He has exceptional range in the field and will be a nice addition an already solid Orioles infield.
I’m sure one of the questions for Orioles’ fans is where Atkins will bat in the lineup. He mostly batted in the fifth spot when he was with the Rockies. This was a good spot for him because he has a decent amount of power and excels with runners in scoring position. It’s not quite certain where he will be batting in the Orioles lineup just yet. The fifth or sixth spot could be a possibility for Atkins early in the season because that’s where he most comfortable batting. He’s too good of a hitter to be any further down in the lineup and he’s not going to mix up the 1-2-3 punch of Brian Roberts, Adam Jones and Nick Markakis. Nolan Reimold and Matt Wieters will most likely start out toward the bottom of the lineup and, based on their performance, could be shifting spots with Atkins throughout the season.
The signing of Atkins will surely improve the Orioles lineup, assuming he hits like he did over his first four seasons. The good news is that he has a lot to prove after an uncharacteristically bad 2009 season. But let’s just hope he can bounce back quickly and return to form in 2010.
Submitted by Steve Giles
He took a big step back last season, and like any Rockies' player one has to wonder about their performance away from Coors Field. Look, I know he COULD improve the Orioles' lineup, but one can't pencil him in for another great season like he used to have. He absolutely fell off the face of the Earth last season and was given constant opportunities throughout the season to get it together. I agree that it was a good signing and will probably yield dividends, but I think you may have painted a little too rosy a picture. There is a reason he was available for a one year, $4.5 million contract in the first place.
I don't understand why they signed Atkins and then went ahead and signed Tejada.
I really question Atkins at 1B. Add that to the fact that Tejada is switching positions too and you have two major question marks defensively at the corners.
I agree with Sheila that your assessment is pretty rosey. To say he that "he fell of a bit" last season is like saying the Orioles struggled a bit last season.
I think I've made my feelings about Crowley known on this board. How this guy is still the hitting coach for this team is beyond me.
It would be great if he bounced back.
But I see a guy gotten on the cheap just like most of the signings this team makes.
Humor me again, I actually don't remember why you're not a fan of Crowley as a hitting coach.
Is it because of his career numbers?
It has nothing to do with his career numbers.
It has to do with him somehow being the hitting coach since 1999 and being retained through numerous managerial regimes for some unknown reason.
I have specifically addressed that I believe coaches who were more pedestrian players make better coaches.
Humor me and explain how he is still the coach.
Success. The Orioles have been in the top half of the league in hitting since 2003.
MLB Rank according to team average:
2009 – 7th
2008 – 11th
2007 – 12th
2006 – 7th
2005 – 11th
2004 – 3rd
…you get the point. Why change a good thing?
Situational hitting in there anywhere?
Hitting with RISP.
Hitting with RISP and two outs?
Look, if you think Crowley is a good hitting coach, so be it.
I would venture to say it's unprecedented in this day and age to have a hitting coach stay on board through what, 5 managers?
You've watched the Orioles for the past 12 years. I don't need much more than that.
Here's how Crowley stayed the hitting coach through the past five managers:
2009: 33 come from behind wins, .268 team average, .284 with RISP, ranked 2nd in the league behind the Angels.
2008: ranked 2nd in BA with RISP
2007: ranked 5th in BA with RISP/2 outs
2006: ranked 8th in BA with RISP/2 outs
Whoa. whoa, whoa…
Ravens sign a guy fresh off a 10 catch 170 yard season on the cheap and that's a good move…
Orioles sign a guy who has a HISTORY with fairly consistent track record (outside of last year) and it's just a cheap questionable move?!?! Guy's got a .289 career avg and put up 20+ homers in 4 of the last 5 years…
Hmmm…
simple economics. the o's could have spent money with no cap penalties and didn't. the ravens have to make low risk gambles assuming there will be a cap in a few years.
Hasn't this team shown a history of blocking players with potential in their minor league system? By signing Atkins to a one year deal, they have the best of both worlds. If he reverts back to what he's done 4 of the last 5 years, then what a bargain they got. If he slides again, then you just allowed Aubrey and Snyder a chance to hone their skills in the minors another year. Given the free agent options at 1st and third base and the fact that the Orioles are high on Bell at 3rd, I think this was a good move. No one had an issue when Cal moved to 3rd (other than Cal), as he was brought up through the system as a 3rd baseman…well, Atkins was originally a 1st baseman, so where's the stretch with the Orioles moving him back?!?
Sigh.
Are you serious STG?
Do I need to go into finances and differences between the O's and the Ravens? Or the fact that the O's, despite revenue from their own team's cable network, but a big majority of another team's network (Nationals) they are something like 27th in payroll this season?
Go take a look at what the Ravens shelled out last year in salaries and get back to me. And please, don't tell me that there's no point for the O's to spend.
My main point about Atkins is that signing both him and Tejada was redundant. Atkins is a 3b making the transition to 1b (yes, i know he's played there some) and Tejada is making the transition to 3b from SS.
I see I'll be the lone person here that doesn't belly up to the bar and drink whatever Andy M and Co. are serving.
The Atkins signing is a one year deal for a guy with a track record of being a consistent player in the league. It's not like they gave a deal to a guy who's never done it at this level and who's simply been given a contract on some sort of "untapped potential." This guy has done it over and over again. And if last year is to become the norm in terms of his decline, then so be it, no further risk in and it gives Aubrey a chance to spend a little more time at Triple A without a guy impeding his progress to the big league team. This is a TRUE no brainer.
Yup. It is low risk. And it's cheap. And it's a stop gap. And if/when his numbers don't sniff his glory days at Coors Field, we'll be lamenting on another "rebuilding season" gone by and another cheap FA to be forgotten.
Then again, people around these parts are talking 95 wins (i assume that was a joke) and a winning season.
I'm sorry I don't subscribe to the notion that hope springs eternal with the Baltimore Orioles. Call it negativity. Call it pessimism.
But I'm done thinking that this organization is truly devoted to winning at this point. This past offseason could've changed my mind but it didn't.
So I'll be the blog downer. I'll also not feel disappointed in June.
Not sure who the Orioles should have pursued at 1B and 3B…let's take a look at who they could have had:
1. Rich Aurilia – 38 YO
2. Adrian Beltre – who hit .265 and had 8 homers last year and was coming off his own poor year
3. Hank Blalock – who is said to be injured and is STILL a free agent, which seems to lend credence to that supposition
4. Russell Branyan – 34 YO with back issues, got a one year deal with Cleveland
5. Carlos Delgado – 35 YO and still out there with his injury issues
6. Pedro Feliz – who hit .249 and .266 the last two seasons and is 34 YO
7. Chone Figgins – I don't know about you, but I thought you were supposed to get power from your corners? Dude has 31 HRs in an 8 year career.
And honestly, it just gets worse from there.
So, if you were Andy McPahil, which of these 1st or 3rd basemen would you have opened up the MASN checkbook for?
STG
It's that kind of post that drives me nuts. You really gonna poo poo Figgins? Really? I mean, with all the power we're supposed to get from Wieters/Jones/Markakis/Scott/Reimold, you don't think Figgins would've been a great signing?
How about Polanco?
Andy McPhail stated that he wanted to add at least one and preferably two power type bats to the lineup. His answer was Tejada and Atkins on one year deals.
And yet I'm the one who somehow needs to show proof or back up my stance?
It's the other way around.
The difference is that you guys seem to think what he did was fine and that all is well with "the plan". I flatly disagree.
Yea, I'm going to poo poo Figgins. I don't like slap hitters at 3rd base. He'd make a swell 2nd baseman, which Seattle has already discussed doing.
95 wins is high. I agree, but a winning season is around the corner and I think it has more to do with the division than the team. We've been through this argument though, so I'll stay away.
I understand being disappointed with the O's past 12 seasons. But saying that Atkins won't sniff the glory days at Coors Field, because of one bad year is negative!
If he only had one good year it would be one thing, but the guy hit .298 from 2003-2008 and had a year under .230 in 2009.
Yup it's a stop gap so that the O's can build the guy they are more excited about and a guy that is recognized throughout the league as a top prospect. But I'd rather have a stop gap who had six good seasons and something to prove than someone who is washed up.
Did the Phillies not sign Thome because they had Howard (who was far and away a better prospect than anything we've got)?
Nope.
You guys keep harping on this notion that the team shouldn't spend on guys because of a myriad of reasons.
1. We're still too young
2. They won't come here until we win (to which I say we won't win without legit help from the outside)
3. We don't wanna impede a young guys growth.
To all of that I say, BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who's to say Snyder or Bell pans out? Odds are one probably won't. If you got a legit guy at 3b or 1b, you could turn around and package one of those guys plus a few other "potential" studs and actually get a proven player.
This notion that this team shouldn't go after big name free agents because they have young guys who "might" pan out is ludicrous in my mind. And I truly believe it will end in a failed "plan" by McPhail.
And Peter Angelos will still make money.
People can call me a cynic when it comes to that but the evidence is there. There is still no reason for this team's payroll to be where it is. Teams like the Reds. THE REDS will shell out more money this year.
Ridiculous.
You are not suggesting that the Orioles should have looked at Thome, are you? Yeah, his bat may have taken them over the top.
I'm also assuming that you are referring to the other guys when you say "you guys" as I never suggested any of the four points above. I've said that the Atkins signing was a low-risk, high reward signing. If he gets back to where he was, it's a steal and you gotta consider trying to pen him to a long term deal. If he bombs, you have a young guy that you're not impeding.
This game and all sports are risks. You say suppose Bell and Snyder don't work out? That's fair…you have to trust in your scouts and hope they're right. Under Flanagan-Beattie-Duquette, not enough hunches worked out, but that's spilled milk, water under the bridge, whatever cliche you like.
McPhail has brought in a few players with potential to be decent players in this league. He has built the farm system back to respectability. He's done what 6 or 7 GMs haven't done (including Pat Gillick) and that's to secure a viable Major League Training facility.
Free Agents don't always pan out either. Ask NY how the deal with Pavano or Giambi worked out. There are no guarantees. But you look at guys with track records and trust that they will duplicate those numbers, as Atkins has done for most of his career.
Look, now you've got me defending Angelos, which isn't easy to do…But, he's locked up Markakis to a long term deal, he's locked up Roberts with an extension, he gave big money to Scott Boros and Matt Wieters…it's not as bad as you're making it.
I understand the last 12 years have sucked, I'm with you, but I believe things are turning the corner, that's all I'm saying.
Thome was signed before the 2003 season.
Howard was drafted in the 2001 season.
OK, I got you. I see what you're saying. Point taken.
Let me just state something.
This team won 64 games last year. And they lost in grand fashion.
Yet I'm supposed to believe that the addition of Tejada/Atkins/Millwood/Gonzalez and the maturation of the young guys will somehow translate into, at minimum for a .500 season, a 17 game turnaround? And that's just to finish .500.
18+ to have a winning season.
Do you guys TRULY believe that is gonna happen?
I'm sure the Tigers fans asked the same questions in 2003 when they achieved a 33 game turn around. They signed a couple of low risk, high reward free agents like Ivan Rodriguez and Carlos Guillen and things worked out pretty well.
I'm sure the Rays fans wondered if young guys like Crawford and Kazmir would work out for them too.
Who knows?
Not sure the Orioles are quite at the point where a player or two puts them in the playoff hunt as Philly probably felt at that time. Also not sure that an impact offensive player near the height of his career was out there this year anyway,
So I guess if you praise every move the Orioles make and buy into "the plan" that has included the team going BACKWARDS in the standings then you get a thumbs up.
But if you don't guzzle the orange kool aid by the gallon then you are saddled with a thumbs down.
Special Teams Guru & a few others are Oriole Kool Aid Drinkers…. This team stinks and will still stink this year and next. Their 3rd sacker, #1 pitcher and possibly 1st baseman will be traded by the deadline so next year they will be starting over with "not really high" prospects at 3rd and maybe 1st. Your #1 pitcher Millwood and #2 Guthrie will not be here next year. Thus possibly throwing 2nd or 3rd year pitchers in those slots. Oh and throw in your starting SS being gone after this year also since his contract will be up.
The Orioles have always over hyped their minor leaguers and they are doing it again… Bell, Snyder, Arrieta…. Remember Ponson, Cabrera, Coppinger, Ed Rogers, Beau Hale, Adam Loewen, Hayden Penn, Widger, Walter Young, etc…
These orange narcotic slurpee drinking Oriole apologists can keep wasting their money on a garbage team.
Your time is up Frodo, drop your dimes on the Bowie BaySox instead of the same old garbage for the past 12 years!
I don't even know where to begin to counter argument this comment. For now I'm just gonna leave a comment for myself to remind me to rebuttle.
Note to self: This guy hasn't watch Andy MacPhail, begin there.
See you tomorrow.
Zach
Please take a look at McPhails record during his run with the Cubs.
I have no idea why so much faith is being put into him.
Again, we can focus on the negatives – Cubs, or the positives – Twins and the two World Championships he guided the club to in 1987 and 1991. We all use statistics when they are handy and ignore them when they don't defend our views. It's human nature.
The negatives are the reality.
The only positives is some assumed potential. That's it. Nothing more.
The positives are reality too. I don't think two world series championships were fathomed in someone's mind. They didn't potentially win two world series, the realistically won two world series.
You are correct. He won two World Series over 20 years ago. Joe Gibbs won 3 Super Bowls with the Skins. This is a "what have you done for me lately" world. I try to go beyond the stats if the they support or don't support my point of view.
I'm talking about the Orioles and the negativity. None of that is perceived. It's been flat out embarrassing to watch this team. Last year might actually have been the worst.
People can post about all the positive change that MacPhail has brought this team until they are blue in the face. All of that positivity has produced exactly nothing with regards to wins and losses. We have been told that this year the manager and the team will be judged on wins and loss. It's sad that they haven't been in the past few years but that's another discussion.
I won't argue that things are "better" than they were 4 years ago. That's like saying scoring a 650 on the SAT is better than scoring a 640.
The onus is on MacPhail, Trembley (good luck with him), and the team to prove it to me as a fan, not the other way around.
The only thing I can say is I hope they can win you back. If they win you back, then it will be good for all of us Oriole fans.
I love and root for the name on the jersey.
I will always do that.
I'll be at many games this season and watch almost all of them.
I'm just far from convinced this team is gonna win at any point in the forseeable future.
Have to agree with Mark on this one… This team will not be a winner soon… In fact, there will even be another manager this year or next. Put that with the new 3rd sacker, SS, possibly 1st baseman, #1 & 2 pitchers next year that I mentioned earlier and you have another start over…
Pie will show why he is a bust this year, Reimold will show why he is nothing but a career minor leaguer, Tejada will not put up his usual numbers and also have trouble at 3rd, the young pitchers will show they were overhyped and Izturis/Andino will show their Belangeresque offensive numbers.
And did I say that your starting DH, Scott will also be gone next year?
So, at the trading deadline this year, Tejada, Millwood, Scott, Guthrie, quite possibly a team challenging for the playoffs will need a SS so Izturis could be traded.
Did you also see that your backup catcher is some guy named Craig Tatum? With Wieters as the starter you need a veteran catcher, even if he is a backup, to help a young pitching staff. Not two 1 or 2 year catchers that are learning themselves.
Football season is how many days away? And did Coach Harbaugh get fired yet? Ah, a story for another column….
Ravens2488,
Welcome aboard. I knew you would take Mark's side on the Orioles, that's why I encouraged you to join.
As you know, I was down on the Orioles a few years ago myself, but I really do believe they can turn it around. I do believe it must start this year and I am not happy with Trembles coming back as manager.
Pitching will be the big key and as you suggest, we have been down this road before with Cabrera and Loewen, etc, but this time, it's not only the Orioles touting these prospects, it's publications like Baseball America touting them. What does this guarantee? Absolutely nothing, but I'm trusting (and hoping) the experts are right.
Unlike many fans, I do believe it has to start this year with a real run at .500.
At some point with fans like this you have to just tell them to sit back and let them watch what happens.
If you believe that Adam Jones, Nick Markakis, Brian Roberts, and Matt Wieters aren't going to make this team better than they've been the past 12 seasons, then I'm gonna feel really sorry for you for missing this story unfold.
If you think that the Orioles talented young pitchers, nationally recognized by the way, won't be a difference maker in this team's turn around, then again I don't know what to tell you than to sit back and watch.
These guys don't seem to have a real solution anyway. "Go get big free agents" won't work on a number of level, we've hit them all before already.
Zach
If you think my solution is "get big free agents" then you have completely missed the point.
It's part of the solution and it needs to happen if this team is gonna be legitimate.
Don't worry. I'll be sitting back and watching. I always do.
This Zach character must be smoking the "hippie lettuce" if he's believing the hype on the O's pitchers… Let me give you a gnarly list Mr. Stoner… Coppinger, Cabrera, Loewen, Penn, Hale, Ryan, Britton, Garrett Olson, Singh, Ainsworth, etc… Most of these clowns were nationally recognized…
Look "Blunt Boy", your probably a young guy, don't hitch your wagon to the Orioles, go with a team that doesn't bullcrap its fans, blow the smoke away from your eyes and start taking a liking to the Sawx, Yanks, Cards, or another team that hasn't ran futile for the past 12 years.
The Orioles had Matt Wieters (1), Chris Tillman (22), and Brian Matusz (5) ranked in Baseball America's top 100 prospects in 2009, they aren't eligible for the list this season because they were promoted to the majors in 2009.
Wieters finished the season with a .288 average, 9 homers, and 43 RBI in 96 games.
Matusz finished 5-2 with a 4.63 ERA in 8 starts, 3-0 with a 2.57 in his last 3 starts of the season.
Tillman finished 2-5 with a 5.40 ERA, but he's 21 years old.
Adam Loewen never panned out, probably due to injury.
Daniel Cabrera showed flashes of greatness, but never put together a season with an ERA under 4.6-5.
Hayden Penn was a career minor leaguer that the Orioles organization (under a different GM) continued to persuade fans would be anything more than the 6-7 ERA pitcher he is…it goes on and on…
My point is, that you're right these guys sometimes don't work out. Sometimes big prospects never pan out. But it isn't fair to to say that what the O's were doing under Flanny is the same as what MacPhail is doing.
The Orioles had a few top prospects that they hoped would work out, but the past two years has been a different plan. Today they have a stockpile of prospects in their farm system that ranked their minor league system 10th in the majors in 2009, ahead on NYY, Boston, and Toronto.
More importantly, they have proven their a different organization by spending big bucks on first round draft picks and supplemented their young talent with a talented young outfield, a second baseman that hit 50+ doubles last year, and position players that are in place to fill the time before their prospects come up to the big leagues.
There is a plan in place, unlike what O's fans were used to under the previous administration.
Zach,
Stop wasting your time with facts.
Zach
Hobgood was taken almost exclusively because they viewed him as not wanting nearly as much as other guys at the top of the draft.
According to "the plan", MacPhail said he wanted to add at least one and preferably two power bats to the lineup. Those bats came in the form of Tejada and Atkins. That's part of the plan?
This team MUST address some flaws from outside of the organization if they expect to compete. They didn't do it this year.
Are they gonna do it next year or is "the plan" to string us along for years and years and kicking the can down the street?
Gimme a break, we've circled through this argument before Mark and you throw out problems with no solution.
The plan is pitching and defense, Atkins and Tejada were brought in to hold the place of Snyder and Bell.
If you want me to ask you "what free agents would you have brought in over Atkins and Tejada" then I will, but we won't agree or your answer.
Zach
You want to believe in the plan? Go ahead.
The plan should be to win. Period. This notion that the Orioles should avoid going after players because they have a prospect in the minors is ridiculous. It's a complete cop out. You wanna buy into it? Fine. But not me. Neither Snyder or Bell are regarded as can't miss type guys. This isn't some college program. It's a major league baseball team that has no pared down their payroll to a laughable number all the while convincing some fans that this MUST be the way to do it and that signing legit free agents is somehow taboo.
I'll say it again. You don't completely disregard improving a spot on your roster because you have a few guys you think might be good in 2 years.
But that's what the Orioles have done.
The plan is pitching and defense? The plan better be scoring some runs in this division.
So what happens next year? It'll be more of the same and the same people who keep telling fans like me that THIS year is the year they will be .500 or over will be saying that 2011 is the year.
I have no solutions? What are yours? Agreeing with every move MacPhail makes?
Why not go hard after Holliday? This was the year where both the Red Sox and Yankees weren't in the running for the big bat. So what they we've got Reimold. Put Holliday in left and package Reimold and some prospects for a legit bat.
Next year, both the Sox and Yankees will be in the market for a big bat. I guess that'll be a nice excuse for the O's when they can't land one. Because we can't compete with Boston and NY. Yet somehow the Reds have a higher payroll.
Please.
I've followed this team as closely as anyone I know since I was able to read a sentence. Just because they have some "potential" players that haven't proven anything doesn't mean this plan is working out.
Do you think MacPhail planned for a 64 win season that included too many embarrassing moments to count? Not a chance.
MacPhail gets praised around these parts like he's a baseball god. How he's so methodical in his ways and is the wise one. I for one, have yet to see exactly why I, as an Orioles fan, should be so excited for the future.
My solution isn't agreeing with MacPhail's every move. In fact I can think of two that have me scratching my head, but I'm not a GM.
What I do believe though is building a team through a young talented rotation, a strong defense, and a decent line up to back up the first two.
I don't think Andy cares how many wins this team had last year, but I know you hate hearing that. The reason he didn't care is because the plan he's put into place takes a couple years to develop the talent. He's continued to stockpile it and weed out the guys from the previous regime that he can while securing the veterans around the young talent to build a winning franchise. Bringing in guys like Adam Jones, Matt Wieters, etc, while weeding out Danys Baez, Hayden Penn, D-Cab, etc.
If this team has 64 wins this season, then we can have this argument for a third time.
Your solution isn't a solution.
Why didn't the O's go hard after Holliday? Two reasons I've previously stated.
A. They'd have to "start over" by unloading the young talent they have stockpiled since MacPhail arrived in Baltimore.
B. (More importantly) He didn't want to come to Baltimore.
Your fantasy baseball solution for fixing Baltimore's issues is really fun and exciting. But it's fantasy.
I believe in building a strong pitching staff and defense, that happens to be what MacPhail is working on at this very moment.
Zach,
The Yankees club of the late 90's was built almost entirely on the shoulders of their minor league system. There also went through a 14 year stretch where they did not make the playoffs (they would have in 94 if not for the strike), but people forget that.
The only reason I point that out is that rebuilding takes time even for a team which I KNOW has the wherewithal to spend. it also points out that throwing money at free agents only goes so far, unless you spend nearly a billion dollars on 3 players.
I'm in no way suggesting this rebuilding effort under MacPhail has 12 years to go, but I am suggesting it takes more than a few years to rebuild a franchise from the ground up.
The free agent pool, aside from a couple of key guys this off season was pretty weak, but I'd say that down the road they have to jump into the free agent pool once they have had time to evaluate their true needs.
STG
Let's take a look at those Yankee teams.
Here is a list of the major contributors from the 96 Championship team.
C – Girardi – not home grown
1b – Tino Martinez – not home grown
2b – Marino Duncan – not home grown
SS – Jeter – home grown
3b – Boggs – not home grown
OF – O'Neil – not home grown
OF – B. Williams – home grown
OF – G. WIlliams – home grown
OF – D. Strawberry – not home grown
OF – T Raines – not home grown
DH – Ruben Sierra – not home grown
DH – C Fielder – not home grown
UTL – Andy Fox – home grown
C – Leyritz – not home grown
Pettitte – home grown
Key – not home grown
Rogers – not home grown
Gooden – not home grown
Cone – not home grown
Rivera – home grown
Wetteland -not home grown
1998:
Take out Girardi and put in Posada (home grown)
Knoblauch at 2nd – not home grown
Curtis in left – not home grown
Brosius at 3rd – not home grown
In 1998 three of the nine batters were home grown
In 1998 the ONLY starter that was homegrown was Pettitte. They signed both Irabu and El Duque as free agents to go along with Wells and Cone.
1999? They added Clemens to the rotation which again only consisted of one home grown starter in Pettitte.
Ledee (home grown) started in left but basically platooned with Curtis.
2000 was the closest thing to a home grown team but still consisted of more free agent and trade additions. David Justice was added at DH/LF. Denny Neagle was added to the staff.
You get my point.
The Yankees dynasty was far from being built on the shoulders of their farm system.
In fact, Pettitte was the only homegrown starter of any relevance on all 4 championship teams.
I stand corrected. Jeter, Pettite, Rivera, and Bernie was not a solid foundation to work with. My mistake.
STG
Not sure if you are being sarcastic but your original statement was this:
"The Yankees club of the late 90's was built almost entirely on the shoulders of their minor league system. "
So while Jeter, Pettitte, Rivera,and B. Williams is a nice foundation if you will for a winning team, it's far from full team built on the shoulders of their minor league system.
You're right. While the Yankees farm system produced 3 solid HOFers a near HOFer and a nice catcher, the Orioles system has produced one All Star position player – Brian Roberts. I see no need to revamp the Orioles mainor league system.
The Boston, they only brought up a few players too. Papelbon, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Hanley Ramirez. Building up the minor leagues is definitely not a productive thing to do. And if you do do it, you must be able to do it overnight.
Fantasy baseball solution?
Going after a legit player is now a fantasy baseball solution? I name ONE guy and somehow you make the leap and mock that as me being someone living in a fantasy world? And thanks for the laugh about having to "start over" because they signed a stud LF. Who's living in the fantasy world again? If you wanna start getting condescending that's fine. I've got no problem with that.
You keep telling yourself that this team will be able to win with what they've got in house.
I believe in building a strong pitching staff and defense too Zach.
You seem to think that can only happen by developing it.
Let me ask you something. If you are so convinced that MacPhail is building a winner with what he's doing, then why wouldn't you think he could do the same thing via some legit free agents?
What if this team wins 70 this year? Should I be happy because they won 6 more games?
Do you think I live in some fantasy world where I want them to sign every free agent? I don't. I live in the real world where they will lose if they don't.
You keep pitching me the company line and I'll watch the product on the field.
I think your plan is a fantasy baseball solution, I never said you live in a fantasy world. Either that or you believe the talent here will develop over night.
I don't think the free agent plan works because I haven't seen free agents want to come to Baltimore because of it's past 12 years and I haven't seen names that I think will fit any better than the guys they brought in. You and STG just went through the whole list a few posts ago.
You don't think Polanco or Figgins fit better than Tejada and/or Atkins?
You don't think Holliday instantly upgrades this offense in a big way?
You don't think John Lackey improves the rotation?
My plan includes using resources they have to put a winner on the field. Tejada signed here years ago when the team was still a perennial loser. They almost had Vlad. Money talks and everyone knows it.
It doesn't include paring down the payroll and selling us a load of BS about how they will sign free agents "when the time is right" or whatever any other garbage is spewed out from the warehouse. My whole point is they will not win without getting some legit free agents.
That's a fundamental difference between you and I. You have put all your eggs into the MacPhail plan.
The Orioles signing a free agent or two (not retreads or B level guys) and spending more than 60-65 million bucks isn't fantasy.
Not even close.
Mark, I'm gonna put this one to rest because we have reached yet another full circle argument. I hope the Ravens sign TO so we can agree on a BR issue.
I don't doubt that Polanco, Figgins, Holliday, and Lackey are better fits for the Orioles. I believe that is a "Fantasy Baseball" solution because these guys wouldn't want to come to Baltimore.
I hope one day guys like them will and what I enjoy about discussing these topics with you is that you are a passionate fan that attends about as many games as I do (a lot). I hope I'm right and we return to the glory days of Orioles baseball. It's what we both want.
Go O's. Next topic.
TO?
Oh no.
Zach, Zach, Zach, my young bucking bronco…. Ya remember when McPhail traded Huff for a rookie league relief pitcher last year who had something like a 8.00 era? Or how about trading for Steve Johnson by giving up your closer, Sherrill, because Stevie boy was Dave Johnsons son and oooops they lose Stevie in I think a Rule 5 pick…
You mean like McPhail signing a 36(?) year old SS (Tejada) who is on the downside of his career and asking him to play a position that he has never done before?
Or maybe trading your starting 1st baseman Huff and asking Scott who never played 1st to start there?
Maybe signing 39 year old Greg Zaun last year and 36 year old Jay Payton and 37 year old Mark Hendrickson and signing some bum Japanese player that they are now putting in the bullpen…
At the trading deadline, Tejada, Millwood, Guthrie, (possibly) Atkins, Pie, (possibly) Izturis will be traded this year and then they start over again next year abeit with a new manager.
Oh, and don't start on the overpaid 2nd sacker!
You forgot that Josh Bell came in the Sherrill trade as well.
Moving Tejada to third isn't a big deal it all, it happens to a lot of aging shortstops. Tejada is there for a year just to hold Bell over.
Zaun was brought in the teach Wieters, how could you overlook him?
The only two from your grocery list of players that may be traded at the deadline would be Pie or Tejada is Bell starts heating up. Atkins won't leave because Snyder won't be ready, there is no shortstop so Izzy will be here, and Guthrie is a starting pitcher! The Orioles aren't getting rid of a starter.
Ravens2488,
Huff was viewed as a poor influence on the younger players on the team. He often bragged about his best season, 2008, when he did little or nothing in the off season and seemed to imply that his offseason regime was the reason why he was successful. Jacobson (the guy the .241 hitting Huff was signed for) actually had a 3.74 ERA, but I have found that facts mean very little with members of this forum. I got those stats from MLB.com, but I'm not sure if they verified them with the Orioles or Tigers' organization, so you can be feel to add your own speculation. He'll never sniff the Majors, but it was addition by subtraction. The Tigers thought so much of Huff that they never attempted to re-sign him. They viewed him as their "Keith Mooreland".
Jay Patton was signed in 2006 by Flanagan, but again facts seem to matter little here. I was not able to verify this through Orioles record keeping.
I wouldn't put much stock into Ravens2488. He knocks whatever move the O's make. If they would have gone after a vet catcher, he would have complained they were wasting money on the guy which could have been used better elsewhere. I remember him complaining about the Tejada trade which brought in 5 players and the Bedard trade that brought in Jones. I will say he has 12 years of material to work with so he doesn't have to think hard though. On guys like Ravens2488 and Mark, they have seen 12 years of futility so they will have to see a difference on the team before they will take a sip of the cool aid.
This guy Raven 2488 makes a lot of sense…Orioles rebuilding is comprised of inserting one has been or retread after another with the same poos results. I am guessing this guy probably is well connected with the Baltimore sports community and attends a bunch of O's games or he might have an inside track on information. No matter, I say quit signing these "glory days" ball players and opne up the pocket book and get some first line ball players. Angelos ought to be ashamed of always coming out second best to the Steiner. Quit lying about rebuilding and put a decent product on the field…the only thing good about Millwood is his lady friend, Miggy is washed up, Atkins won't hit his weight…say hello to another 90 plus loss season. When's the NFL draft?